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On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Robert Costa:
- GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina
- GOP Sen. Tim Scott of South Carolina
- CBS Information authorized analyst Rikki Klieman
- Democratic Rep. Jim Clyburn of South Carolina
- Historian Douglas Brinkley and reporter and writer Amie Parnes
Click on right here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”
ROBERT COSTA: I am Robert Costa in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Former President Donald Trump faces one more authorized setback. And with the South Carolina Republican major lower than every week away, Nikki Haley is combating to remain within the race.
(Start VT)
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of america (R) and Present U.S. Presidential Candidate): Crooked choose. Crooked choose. He is a crooked choose.
(Finish VT)
ROBERT COSTA: Former President Trump lashes out about his newest authorized turmoil, a New York choose ordering him to pay almost $355 million in a civil fraud case.
(Start VT)
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It is a sham case. There have been no victims, no defaults, no damages, no complaints, no nothing.
(Finish VT)
ROBERT COSTA: And with days to go till the following GOP contest, his lone opponent seeks a gap.
(Start VT)
NIKKI HALEY (R-Presidential Candidate): He’ll spend most of this 12 months in a courtroom, not on a marketing campaign path. That is not a method you win.
(Finish VT)
ROBERT COSTA: In the meantime, international assist sparks debate on the marketing campaign path.
(Start VT)
NIKKI HALEY: You’ve got Congress saying, nicely, will we assist Ukraine and Israel, or will we assist the border? That is a false premise. We will do each.
(Finish VT)
ROBERT COSTA: We are going to hear from each of South Carolina’s Republican senators, Tim Scott and Lindsey Graham, about their latest journey to the U.S.-Mexico border and the way the loss of life of Putin critic Alexei Navalny will affect the push to assist Ukraine.
Then: South Carolina Democrat Jim Clyburn was key to Joe Biden’s 2020 major win. We are going to hear whether or not he has any issues about President Biden’s reelection.
Lastly, on this President’s Day weekend, a dialogue on management, character and American values.
It is all simply forward on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. Margaret is off immediately.
Congress is on a two-week recess, however there’s an pressing push amongst some lawmakers to do extra to fund Ukraine. This weekend, one other main Ukrainian metropolis fell to Russian forces. And at an annual safety convention in Munich, President Zelenskyy pleaded for extra assist from the U.S. and from allies all over the world.
(Start VT)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY (Ukrainian President): Don’t ask Ukraine when the struggle will finish. Ask your self, why is Putin nonetheless capable of proceed it?
(Finish VT)
ROBERT COSTA: However the path ahead for extra U.S. assist stays unsure.
Final week, the Senate handed a $95 billion international assist invoice that included cash for Ukraine, Israel and extra. However the GOP-controlled Home isn’t anticipated to take up that measure.
South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who opposed the bipartisan Senate laws joins us now from Clemson, South Carolina.
Senator, good morning.
At this level do you count on…
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-South Carolina): Good morning.
ROBERT COSTA: … any new U.S. help for Ukraine from Congress?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure, I do.
I really feel very optimistic, after having been on the telephone all weekend speaking with my Home colleagues, that there is a method ahead concerning the border and Ukraine.
The Downside Solvers Caucus, Congressman Fitzpatrick and Gott – Gottsenheim. I am sorry, Josh, I can not keep in mind your final identify right here, Gosenheim…
ROBERT COSTA: Gottheim – Josh Gottheimer from New Jersey.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure. Sure.
They have a fairly artistic thought. Here is what they’re saying. Let’s return to Stay in Mexico as a border safety coverage. And that was the primary request of the Border Patrol on our go to to Texas with Senator Scott. Return to Stay in Mexico. It’s a must to wait in Mexico on your asylum declare. You are not launched into america, and, secondly, to reinstitute Title 42.
These two issues on the border, I feel, are easy, will work. They usually wish to slim down the help package deal to $60 billion, all deadly assist. And here is what I instructed them. I feel that is the successful mixture. I advised making the deadly assist a mortgage, like President Trump has advised.
The Europeans gave Ukraine $50 billion; 33 of it was a mortgage. So I feel, if you happen to flip the deadly assist right into a mortgage, do Stay in Mexico, Title 42, that mixture not solely will get by the Home. It picks up votes within the Senate. It will be welcome aid to the Ukraine. It would be a blow to Putin. It is going to additionally assist Israel and Taiwan.
ROBERT COSTA: Senator Graham, let’s cease there for a second. You surprised lots of your colleagues and U.S. allies all over the world if you opposed this latest…
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure. Sure, I did.
ROBERT COSTA: No, you probably did, with opposing this bipartisan laws.
Now it appears you’re ready to assist this rising Home laws from a few of these centrist Republicans and Democrats.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure.
ROBERT COSTA: To be clear, this can be a $66 billion package deal that goes throughout Israel, Ukraine, and border safety. Are you saying this morning that you’re a yes-vote on the Fitzpatrick Home proposal?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure, I am saying that the Home proposal – it will depend on the way it’s written – makes good sense to me.
I feel you may decide up six to eight Republicans who wish to assist Ukraine, however believed that the bipartisan – bipartisan border invoice was not ample sufficient. Why did I vote no? I wish to assist ourselves by securing our border. I wish to assist Ukraine, Taiwan, and Israel. The border provisions had been – weren’t satisfactory…
ROBERT COSTA: Understood.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: … to the duty. And there have been many good issues.
So, Stay in Mexico…
ROBERT COSTA: Proper.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: … is the primary recreation changer. You place that within the package deal, you slim down the package deal to deadly assist, however I do not – I might assist humanitarian assist, smaller in quantity, if it was a mortgage.
Once more, the Europeans have made 33 of their $50 billion switch to Ukraine a mortgage. Let’s make it a mortgage. I feel that will get you President Trump on the – the help half. Let’s go to Stay in Mexico. We obtained a package deal that can work.
And as to – as to what occurred in Russia with Navalny, Navalny was one of many bravest folks I’ve ever met. When he went again to Russia, he needed to know he was going to be killed by Putin. And he was murdered by Putin.
So, why do not we do that? I simply obtained off the telephone with two Democratic senators. Let’s make Russia a state sponsor of terrorism underneath U.S. regulation. Let’s make them pay a worth for killing Navalny. It will enable the Navalny household to go to U.S. court docket and sue Putin’s Russia for killing of their liked one.
A state sponsor of terrorism designation is a recreation changer. It will enable extra sanctions. It will open up the American courtroom. I’ve been pushing this for a 12 months.
ROBERT COSTA: Do you count on laws on that this week?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure, completely.
President Biden instructed Putin, if one thing occurs to Navalny, you are going to pay a worth. President Biden, I agree with you. The worth they need to pay is to make Russia a state sponsor of terrorism, like Iran, Cuba and North Korea. They deserve this designation. Putin’s been killing folks, opposition leaders, for many years now. He is dismembered Syria.
He is one of many world’s worst actors.
ROBERT COSTA: Senator Graham…
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: He is an indicted struggle felony.
Sure.
ROBERT COSTA: I wish to come again to what you stated about this information you simply made that you simply’re now supporting Home laws on Ukraine funding, after opposing the Senate laws. You stated you…
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
ROBERT COSTA: … assume you may get former President Trump to purchase in on some parts. That is a giant guess.
(LAUGHTER)
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure. Properly…
ROBERT COSTA: Have you ever spoken to former President Trump about your new assist for this Home invoice? And are you assured you possibly can persuade him to not attempt to kill what Brian Fitzpatrick, the Home member from Pennsylvania, is placing ahead?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Good query.
I’ve not spoken to President Trump about this package deal. I spoke to President Trump earlier within the week about making the help to Ukraine a mortgage. This was his thought, not mine. You understand, we did lend-lease to Britain. We’re $34 trillion in debt. Ukraine has minerals. They’ve numerous sources.
Israel has a robust economic system. They’ve been harm badly by October the seventh. Taiwan is a fairly wealthy nation. Why do not we do that, make a good mortgage to all three of those allies? Allow them to pay us again once they can, if they will, as a result of we’re $34 trillion in debt. That is the Trump thought.
When you embrace that, I feel you may get numerous votes within the Home and the Senate. President Trump says, let’s wait on the border. With all due respect, we can not wait. It is a nationwide safety nightmare, a 2000 % improve in folks on the terrorist watch listing coming throughout the border in two years.
5 billion folks could possibly be killed by the quantity of fentanyl coming throughout our southern border. The most important lack of lifetime of younger folks in America is fentanyl poisoning coming throughout the southern border. So I do not wish to wait. I wish to act now on the border. I wish to flip the help package deal right into a mortgage. That makes good sense to me.
And I feel the bipartisan Downside Solvers group has an thought that can promote. So…
ROBERT COSTA: Positive.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: … if you happen to’re Putin, I need you to know we’re not going to tug the plug on Ukraine. We’ll come after you. We’ll make your nation a state sponsor of terrorism. You are going to pay a heavy worth for murdering this courageous man.
ROBERT COSTA: However Putin’s watching what’s occurring in Congress. And he should surprise, the place is the Republican Celebration nowadays?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure.
ROBERT COSTA: Former President Trump has been invited by President Zelenskyy…
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure.
ROBERT COSTA: … to come back to the entrance traces.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Sure.
ROBERT COSTA: Ought to he try this?
And do you’ve any concern, Senator Graham, with how former President Trump has spoken about NATO allies and the way he has stated, in the event that they’re delinquent on funds to NATO, nicely, Russia can do regardless of the heck it desires? Is that acceptable, particularly when it comes to U.S. international coverage?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: I feel what’s acceptable is for everyone to satisfy the duty of two %.
Sam Nunn in 1984 threatened to withdraw 30,000 troops a 12 months from NATO in the event that they did not make the three % quantity again within the ’80s. So, here is what I feel. They need to pay up; 19 of 31 NATO nations don’t contribute 2 % of GDP. I wish to have a system the place, if you happen to do not pay, you get kicked out.
However, no, I am not inviting Russia to invade Ukraine. President Trump is true to need NATO nations to satisfy their obligation of two %. We have to flip it into an obligation meaning one thing.
ROBERT COSTA: Ought to…
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: I am a giant fan of NATO. However there’s $70 billion to $80 billion left on the desk. When you’re in NATO, pay the two %.
ROBERT COSTA: Closing factor right here, Senator Graham.
Particular Counsel Hur is scheduled to go earlier than the Home Judiciary Committee within the coming weeks. You are on the Senate Judiciary Committee. Do you propose to push to have him testify earlier than your committee?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: We’ll go away that as much as Senator Durbin. I obtained some concepts about that.
However I simply wish to finish it. One, thanks for having me on the present.
I see a pathway ahead now for Ukraine, Taiwan, and – and Israel. I see a method to safe our border in a extra easy style. Let’s make Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. All of this may occur within the subsequent 30 days. It will be a recreation changer for the world. So we’ll see what occurs.
ROBERT COSTA: The talks appeared lifeless. Now they appear alive.
Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, thanks.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM: Thanks.
ROBERT COSTA: We flip now to South Carolina’s different Republican senator, Senator Tim Scott. He joins us this morning from his residence state.
Senator, thanks for being right here.
SENATOR TIM SCOTT (R-South Carolina): Hey, Bob.
ROBERT COSTA: Former President Donald Trump has spent numerous time within the courtroom in latest days.
And his opponent Nikki Haley says that is a burden probably for Republicans nationwide to have a standard-bearer who’s within the courtroom. Does she have some extent?
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: She doesn’t.
Here is what we all know with none query, that this has solely uncovered the two-tiered justice system that many Individuals concern, that you’ve a justice system that hunts Republicans, whereas defending Democrats.
Bob, probably the most compelling items of proof in the direction of this truth is particular counsel Hur’s report that stated that completely, with none query, Joe Biden mishandled categorised, delicate materials. On the identical time, you’ve courts truly focusing on and operating after Republicans, not simply, nevertheless, the previous president, however whether or not it is pro-life activists or of us displaying up in school board conferences being referred to by this Division of Justice as home terrorists.
We now have a two-tiered justice system that’s being uncovered.
ROBERT COSTA: You speak concerning the Justice Division being weaponized, however that is a declare made with out proof right here, that there is – that it is in some way being weaponized. It’s a must to have intent…
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Properly…
ROBERT COSTA: … relating to making that type of declare.
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Here is what we see.
Particular counsel Hur’s report is crystal clear that the president of america is simply too outdated, his reminiscence defective, which makes him sympathetic for a jury, so they are not shifting ahead with costs.
ROBERT COSTA: OK, let’s transfer…
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: However the report is evident…
ROBERT COSTA: Senator…
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: … that he mishandled – that he mishandled categorised materials. That report is…
ROBERT COSTA: And there was no cost.
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: … crystal clear, Bob. I feel we will agree on that.
ROBERT COSTA: The characterizations have been extremely contested, and there was no cost included in that report.
However relating to former President Trump, Senator Scott, do you consider the RNC, the Republican Nationwide Committee, must be concerned in paying his authorized bills, that are mounting?
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: I can solely let you know that, with none query, if you have a look at the two-tiered justice system that we’ve that I simply strengthened, I feel it is vital for us to notice that, with none query, the American individuals are very involved about how that will affect their lives.
Their points are very clear, by the way in which. The American individuals are extra centered on their future than Donald Trump’s previous. What they’re extra centered on is ensuring that our southern border is secured. We’re taking a look at virtually 10 million unlawful crossings by the election.
The American folks aren’t asking the questions on authorized challenges. The American individuals are asking questions on financial challenges. They don’t seem to be speaking about authorized challenges. They’re speaking about their challenges throughout a kitchen desk.
ROBERT COSTA: And also you – and also you had been simply in Eagle Go with Senator Graham on Friday…
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Sure, sir.
ROBERT COSTA: … centered on border safety.
You’re being talked about as somebody who’s a doable vice presidential contender for former President Donald Trump. Do you have to be – ever develop into vp, whether or not it is this time round or sooner or later, an vital query is, how do you particularly see the function of vp on the day of congressional certification?
What do you consider, Senator, is the function of a vp on the day of congressional certification?
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Properly, here is what I am not going to do is reply questions which might be hypothetical concerning the previous.
The one factor we all know concerning the future is that the previous president, thankfully, he’ll achieve success in 2024. He will not be going through that state of affairs once more.
So, I feel…
ROBERT COSTA: I am not asking you a hypothetical query. I am asking you a constitutional query.
How do you see the function of vp when it comes to the congressional certification?
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: The Structure may be very clear.
ROBERT COSTA: And also you stand by your determination…
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: This – this – this isn’t – this – this – after all I do.
There – there – there’s not a query that – that we will ask after which have answered concerning the previous. I am not altering my place.
ROBERT COSTA: Let’s transfer on to politics.
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Positive.
ROBERT COSTA: Nikki Haley has been powerful. She has been a longtime ally of yours, not a lot anymore.
Her son, her grownup son, Nalin, has referred to you as Judas…
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Sure.
ROBERT COSTA: … for endorsing former President Donald Trump. What’s your response to Nalin Haley and to Nikki Haley, who has probably not disavowed that remark, although she’s type of shushed her son every now and then?
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Sure, nicely, right here – here is what I might say.
Politics makes folks and their households determined. It is unlucky for an individual with a excessive caliber of a person that she has been to stoop right down to having her and her household discuss with me or anybody else as Judas Iscariot or another name-calling.
But it surely’s not about me, frankly. It is concerning the American folks. So I – I hope that they get again to specializing in the underlying points. However, till then…
ROBERT COSTA: Talking of that, Senator, ought to former President Trump…
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: … I’ll proceed to remind myself to be for – – forgiving in that capability, in that course of.
ROBERT COSTA: And simply ultimate factor right here, talking of name-calling, you say deal with the problems. Ought to former President Trump cease calling Ambassador Haley birdbrain?
SENATOR TIM SCOTT: Properly, I – I feel her – her son ought to cease calling me Judas Iscariot. So there’s plenty of issues that we will speak about.
However let’s simply preserve our deal with the American folks and why it is so vital for us to – as elected officers to deal with their points. One of many explanation why President Trump is main so considerably within the polls, one of many explanation why he truly gained extra girls in New Hampshire within the ballot – in – within the outcomes of the election than Nikki Haley did is as a result of he was specializing in regulation and order, and securing our southern border, and security in our streets, enhancing our economic system.
These are the problems that we should always deal with, not the back-and-forth and the difficult instances by which we stay, and the straightforward feedback which might be – you realize, they’re throwaway feedback long-term, however they will do injury short-term.
ROBERT COSTA: Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, we recognize your time.
Face the Nation can be again in a single minute. Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ROBERT COSTA: For some evaluation on the fraud ruling in opposition to the Trump Group and what’s subsequent on the authorized entrance for the previous president, we’re joined now by CBS Information authorized analyst Rikki Klieman. She is in Southampton, New York, this morning.
Good morning, Rikki.
Former President Trump is anticipated to attraction this ruling within the civil fraud case. What do you count on subsequent on that entrance, and the way is he going to pay?
RIKKI KLIEMAN: Properly, let’s take a look at if he has a very good attraction. And I feel that many authorized consultants would agree that he does, and for 2 causes.
Primary, this can be a statute out of the state of New York that was designed in opposition to fraud, however client safety fraud, that’s, individuals who didn’t have sophistication within the market, individuals who could possibly be taken benefit of by a rip-off.
Right here, the president’s legal professionals have continued in saying that there was no sufferer right here, that the banks had been repaid. They had been by no means late with the cost. The banks had been joyful to do enterprise with them. The banks may do due diligence, and the banks went away joyful and the banks had been happy.
So that they have challenged this regulation from the very starting. And an appellate court docket would possibly need to check out it, as a result of it’s a method of placing an trade or an organization out of enterprise. Secondly, Donald Trump and his legal professionals will search for a discount within the quantity of the penalty.
The penalty is astronomical. Once you have a look at the way you go ahead with an attraction, what you need to do is, inside 30 days, both submit the quantity of the penalty up with int – with curiosity – so it is 120 % of the penalty. And we’re actually speaking about one thing like $450 million to submit.
If you cannot try this in money, you are going to have to seek out belongings that can be collateral for a surety firm. It is a mighty activity for monetary advisers coping with Donald Trump and the group to get the cash or the bond for that attraction.
If the attraction cannot be docketed due to the cash, the cash goes to need to be paid.
ROBERT COSTA: That is one in every of a number of challenges going through former President Trump simply in New York.
Beginning subsequent month, on March 25, he has a hush cash funds felony trial starting in Manhattan. What are your ideas on how that is going to play out over a six-week interval in March, April and Could?
RIKKI KLIEMAN: What we’ve to recollect is that that is the primary case in opposition to a former president. That makes it of historic significance and significance.
You are going to have a choose who’s strict, with Choose Merchan. There’s not going to be any playing around. It will go ahead with all deliberate pace. There are individuals who maybe would have most well-liked on a nationally vital degree that the January 6 case went first or the Mar- a-Lago paperwork case went first.
However, however, this can be a felony case. It’s a number of counts of falsification of enterprise information to commit or conceal a criminal offense. And, in response to the DA, that crime needed to do with tax functions, needed to do with federal election regulation and state election regulation.
There’s nothing right here about this case to make it look like it is de minimis, to make it look like it should not be completed. Will probably be completed. And if there is a conviction, these counts have a four-year jail time period most.
ROBERT COSTA: And you may serve – you possibly can run for president and function president if you happen to’re convicted of a criminal offense in our system, right?
RIKKI KLIEMAN: Not solely are you able to run and serve. You’ll discover, as you nicely know, that right here, within the lifetime of Donald Trump, the political and the authorized collide.
That is actually the fraud case Donald Trump will use in an effort to say that there are individuals who have exceeded their authority, just like the legal professional common of New York. Then he seems to be on the New York case. He’ll have the ability to marketing campaign that the district legal professional has exceeded his authority by going ahead with these sorts of instances.
So, it performs into the political actuality at an important time on the political calendar.
ROBERT COSTA: And, Rikki, down in Fulton County, Georgia, in latest days, Fani Willis took the stand. Do you count on her to be dismissed or disqualified from the Georgia election interference case?
RIKKI KLIEMAN: Properly, it was a salacious couple of days on tv watching and a digital camera within the courtroom to listen to concerning the private, intimate relationship of district legal professional Fani Willis and the particular prosecutor that she employed who was her lover for a time frame.
The salaciousness of this and the truth that she determined to testify when she was offended leads us to some extent that it has in all probability harm her credibility. The case won’t be dismissed. I doubt that she can be disqualified.
However, in the end, though she wins the movement, I might say that it could possibly be stated, politically, that the case then legally actually turns into a loser.
ROBERT COSTA: We are going to go away it there.
Rikki Klieman, thanks a lot.
And we can be proper again with much more Face the Nation. Stick with us.
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ROBERT COSTA: We’ll be proper again with Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn and a panel on presidential legacies.
Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ROBERT COSTA: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION.
We go now to Congressman Jim Clyburn. He is in Santee, South Carolina.
Congressman, good morning. Thanks for being right here. We recognize it.
REP. JIM CLYBURN (D-SC): Properly, thanks very a lot for having me.
ROBERT COSTA: Congressman, you’re a long-time confidant of President Biden. Once you have a look at his re-election marketing campaign proper now, you are optimistic, I do know, however what’s your greatest concern? What retains you up at night time politically?
JIM CLYBURN: Properly, the factor that retains me unsleeping are the misinformation efforts which might be underway all through this marketing campaign. I’ve heard a lot from folks sharing with me issues that simply aren’t true. A lot from individuals who appear to really feel that the whole lot they see or hear through the web has some substance to them. And so that is the factor that retains me up, whether or not or not we will have a marketing campaign for the presidency freed from all of those interruptions and all the misinformation.
ROBERT COSTA: What particularly are you talking about?
JIM CLYBURN: Properly, we keep in mind what occurred up in New Hampshire when folks utilizing AI replicated the voice of Joe Biden and put issues out over the air that weren’t true. We have already seen a few of that going down right here in South Carolina concerning the Republican major, inviting Democrats into the first, saying issues over the air that simply should not true.
ROBERT COSTA: So, you are apprehensive about how data is acquired by voters, how they perceive this marketing campaign, however what about turnout? You have seen how the Biden administration’s assist for Israel and its struggle with Hamas has sparked some protests at occasions throughout the nation.
Are you involved that Democratic turnout could possibly be gentle amongst some younger voters and others due to the Biden administration’s place on that concern?
JIM CLYBURN: Properly, I am involved concerning the concern like all people else is. I am involved about what is going on on in Russia. And I feel that every one of that’s half and parcel of the identical factor. And naturally we’re listening to from lots of people who’re involved about what is going on at the moment with the management in Russia, with what is going on on with the Ukraine struggle, what is going on on in Israel with the Gaza Strip. All of those are massive issues that every one of us have.
However when you’ve these issues, you are on the lookout for individuals who can lead us by these items. And no one is healthier geared up to do this than Joe Biden. He’s – has the expertise. He has the knowledge. He has the demeanor. He has the relationships. He has what it takes to get this nation to the place it must be and to take care of the relationships we have to have with our allies all over the world. That you just’re not going to seek out on the opposite facet of the aisle.
ROBERT COSTA: You stated he ought to keep regular with U.S. allies.
Relating to Israel, ought to he stick together with his place on Prime Minister Netanyahu or maybe rethink that relationship?
JIM CLYBURN: Properly, I am not too certain that we all know precisely what that relationship is with Netanyahu. I’ve talked to the president about this. And, after all, he’s not going to be public with the whole lot he says to Netanyahu.
However I do know this, he feels about the way in which I really feel relating to Netanyahu. He’s – his management has not been good for Israel. We stand firmly with the folks of Israel. However I’ve all the time had an actual drawback with Netanyahu, and that continues to be immediately.
ROBERT COSTA: You say you’ve an issue with Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, and also you say you have spoken to the president privately about this.
Does he have an issue with Netanyahu?
JIM CLYBURN: I’ve shared with the president what my emotions are about Netanyahu. He’s going to develop his personal emotions about that. He hasn’t instructed me precisely what –
ROBERT COSTA: However does he agree or disagree along with your evaluation, Congressman?
JIM CLYBURN: Properly, he is accepted my evaluation. I’ve not requested him whether or not or not he agreed with me. In reality, I simply let him know, that is the way in which I really feel. I am not operating the nation. You do what you’re feeling is in the most effective curiosity of the nation.
ROBERT COSTA: You famously instructed then candidate Biden in 2020 that he ought to nominate a black girl to the Supreme Courtroom. That helped him get your endorsement, helped win over many black voters.
What does President Biden must do now to ensure black voters come out in the identical method they did for him in 2020? Does he must do something particularly, and does he must make a brand new pledge, and what ought to that be in that case?
JIM CLYBURN: He ought to proceed to handle the nation the way in which he is managing it. He made that pledge, and it was a well timed pledge as a result of all of us know what the historical past of the nation is. And up till that time there had been 5 girls on the Supreme Courtroom and never a single time had an African American girl ever been critically thought of. And so I assumed that that is what wanted to be completed in that individual occasion.
No, I might say to him, preserve doing what you are doing.
ROBERT COSTA: Congressman, you might be operating for re-election however leaving the Democratic management. You are 83 years outdated. President Biden is 81.
How ought to he deal with the problem of query of age within the coming months?
JIM CLYBURN: Emphasize your expertise, emphasize the knowledge, keep your connections with of us. I am on my method to New York this night. I want the climate had been totally different up there, however I am going. I will be in Pennsylvania very quickly, North Carolina, and Georgia, carrying the president’s message of expertise, of a gradual hand, of sustaining our trek towards a extra good union, doing the issues which might be essential to take care of {our relationships} all over the world and transfer this nation ahead on behalf of all.
I’m fond of claiming, this can be a nice nation, in no want of being made nice. We have simply obtained to determine methods to make this nation’s greatness accessible and inexpensive for all of our residents. And Joe Biden is doing that. And we’ve obtained to remain centered on that.
ROBERT COSTA: Congressman Jim Clyburn, thanks. We recognize it.
We’ll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ROBERT COSTA: For some historic context on this Presidents’ Day weekend, we’re joined now by Douglas Brinkley. He is a presidential historian and the writer of many books, together with “The Unfinished Presidency.” And we’re joined by Amie Parnes, a nationwide political reporter. Her newest e-book co- authored with John Allen, “Fortunate,” chronicles President Biden’s 2020 marketing campaign.
It is so nice to have each of you right here. I like reflecting on the presidency Presidents’ Day weekend.
And, Doug, we’ll start with you.
You’re shut with former President Jimmy Carter. You have written an exquisite e-book about his unfinished presidency after he left the White Home. He is now down in Plains, and it is a 12 months in the past immediately former President Carter entered hospice care and a 12 months later he’s nonetheless with us.
Inform us about what you realize in – from the Carter household, how he is doing, I do know it is a powerful 12 months, and what his presidency means.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY (Presidential Historian): Properly, you realize, he – it’s powerful if you’re 99, however Carter has numerous will. And he is alert and consuming and has capability to know what is going on on round him. And I am hoping he makes it till October 1, 2024, so we’ve Jimmy Carter at 100 years outdated and we will rejoice.
He is type of beat most cancers earlier than, however he is – he is centered on eradication of guinea worm illness that used to ravage, you realize, over 20 African international locations. And he – he is aware of they’re very near taking away that horrible illness. And he is been the progenitor (ph) of that effort, and he nonetheless has the cognizant about – about that.
As for who he’s, he is wanting higher and higher each day in historical past since you pull again and have a look at that one – one time period and also you see the Camp David Peace Accord, Egypt and Israel, have a look at what we’ve now. Environmental entrance, he put as a lot land because the state of Alaska – of California apart in Alaska. And that is solely going to develop when local weather occurs, all that he saved. He injected human rights into our diplomatic parlance. He is the particular person to acknowledge the Individuals’s Republic of China, not Nixon formally. And the Panama Canal Treaty. The listing goes on and on. He created FEMA, Division of Power, tremendous fund websites (ph).
So, on paper, you have a look at all of this and also you’re saying, it is a outstanding one-term president who, by the way in which, goes out with the love of the world, a Nobel Peace Prize, and it – and his integrity intact.
ROBERT COSTA: And, Amie, as Faulkner stated, the previous is basically by no means previous. You concentrate on President Joe Biden, who you have lined so carefully. He endorsed Jimmy Carter in 1976 when Carter ran for president.
AMIE PARNES (“Fortunate: How Joe Biden Barley Received the Presidency” Co-Creator): Sure.
ROBERT COSTA: He is been to Plains to go to with the previous president and the late first girl, Rosalynn Carter.
And there was one thing about Carter all the time feeling misunderstood by official Washington. And Biden, a long-time insider in Washington, however you continue to sense from the Biden folks nowadays a way that he’s misunderstood.
AMIE PARNES: Sure. And – undoubtedly. And when Doug was speaking about one time period, I feel that that could be a line that’s scaring lots of people inside Biden world proper now and scaring numerous Democrats as a result of they assume that he may probably go down that Carter path and he could possibly be a one-term president. And that’s what is driving the marketing campaign proper now and driving the White Home to stop him from turning into that. And also you’re seeing that.
There – there’s this fear, if you speak to folks and so they’re being candid with you and so they let you know what’s actually happening, there’s a fear. They see what’s occurring within the polls. Biden himself is turning into annoyed with what is going on. And also you see what’s – you see that they are attempting – they’re wanting on the polls and saying, OK, what can we do higher? How can we talk our technique extra successfully? As a result of I feel they know once they’re being candid with you that they’ve failed.
ROBERT COSTA: And if you have a look at the Biden marketing campaign, it isn’t solely President Joe Biden, it is Vice President Kamala Harris.
What’s her function within the coming 12 months as this marketing campaign heats up?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY: Properly, first off, it actually seems to be like it will be Biden-Harris. And also you’re studying all these folks pondering Biden’s going drop out. I do not consider it for a minute. Actually not till say June. I imply Joe Biden’s going to gather all of the delegates and personal the Democratic Celebration, and hopefully he’ll go on with Kamala Harris. That is their plan.
Now, if Biden needed to drop out for some cause, I might say ballot numbers hitting 22 %, then they’d need to in all probability flip to Kamala Harris until they had been going to do one thing on the conference, like with the Michelle Obama/Admiral McRaven ticket as some type of a shock.
ROBERT COSTA: Properly, that –
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY: That is pie within the sky.
ROBERT COSTA: It’s extremely pie within the sky.
However I’ve observed, Doug, that Jill Biden, the primary girl, has been out entrance working with the president, urging supporters to rally behind him.
Do you consider she’s a significant a part of the marketing campaign?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY: She is the important half. Dr. Jill Biden is it.
You understand, if you happen to return to 1952, Harry Truman may have run, and he did not. Why? Properly, the Korean Warfare and, you realize, different causes. However – however Bess needed to return to independence of – you realize, she did not prefer it in Washington.
When you minimize to ’68, Lyndon Johnson was – give up in March of ’68 and folks will say due to Walter Cronkite. No. The large factor was his well being was unhealthy, he had a nasty coronary heart, he was smoking, hypertension, rigidity, and Woman Hen Johnson did not wish to keep in. And she or he needed – let’s return to Texas and satisfied Johnson to step down.
So, within the Truman, I am supplying you with two, Truman may have stayed on, and Johnson, and so they each stated, no, it is as a result of their wives, their partner, stated, sufficient.
That is not the case with Jill Biden. She likes energy. She desires to remain. She desires some sense of revenge. She teaches in Virginia Neighborhood Faculty. This (INAUDIBLE) round our constructing right here, that is – is her residence. And the thought of relinquishing all of it after you have taking the slings and arrows of the final years of assaults, and on the final minute, simply if you get all of the delegates you are going to say, I’ll open it as much as a bunch of individuals, it is – it’s extremely infantile if you learn these type of studies.
ROBERT COSTA: Sure, I see no reporting that that is going to occur.
AMIE PARNES: No, I do not assume he would ever, ever, each. I imply he assume – he feels that he’s essentially the most succesful particular person of beating Trump. He stated it publicly. He stated it privately to former President Barack Obama. He is stated it to numerous folks. He thinks that he is the one one within the recreation who can do that. And he factors to 2020. And even relationship again to 2016, you realize, he truly had beef with Hillary Clinton for some time as a result of he thought, you realize, if he would have run as an alternative, he may have overwhelmed Donald Trump. And so – and right here we’re, you realize, on this, he thinks, on this complete mess.
So – however his drawback is, proper now, that he’ll need to counter all these polls that say that, you realize, folks do not have confidence in him anymore. Once you see polls from 2020, he was presupposed to be the man who united the nation, who was there to carry everybody collectively, who was the – you realize, he talked concerning the soul of the nation. And lots of people go searching, they have a look at their financial institution accounts and so they say, look, I am nonetheless not feeling – I am not feeling nice about issues. I – I feel that the nation has develop into extra divisive. And I feel that he would possibly pay the worth for that.
ROBERT COSTA: I hear from my sources near President Biden that he is so annoyed behind the scenes as a result of he’ll level to financial information, even when folks really feel inflationary ache. They really feel – he is aware of they might – they may be sad with the economic system, however he factors to the inventory market and different information elements and says issues are going nicely, issues are getting higher. And he is annoyed concerning the media on a regular basis speaking about his age.
How is that frustration enjoying out behind the scenes?
AMIE PARNES: It’s. He is very annoyed in response to folks I am speaking to. And all these studies are true. He’s – he is more and more saying, we’ve completed a lot. Look how a lot we’ve completed. Why is not this on the market extra. And that is what I used to be speaking about earlier if you speak about a communication technique. He’s having a communications drawback, and that’s what they’ll have to determine shortly.
ROBERT COSTA: Doug, you have written extensively about former President Ronald Reagan. Listening to Senator Lindsey Graham, you hear the strain now within the GOP relating to international coverage.
Is that this Reagan’s celebration in any respect anymore? Is all of it now within the imprint of Trump, particularly relating to points like Putin, Russia, international affairs, Ukraine?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY: It is – it is Trump’s international coverage. The times of Reagan are over. Reagan has extra in widespread with Invoice Clinton’s presidency or Barack Obama’s. Ronald Reagan all the time despised Russia and the Soviet Union as a result of he noticed it as totalitarian. He wager on that as a governor within the Sixties, giving ardent speeches, democracy will prevail.
Famously he went and gave his boys of Pointe du Hoc speech at Normandy, Peggy Noonan’s speech, amongst others over there, and stated, we liberated the primary half in World Warfare II of Europe and now we have got to liberate the second half. So, the breakup of the Soviet Union occurred underneath Bush 41 in 1991. That – that is the type of factor Ronald Reagan liked. And Reagan could be unwell, and notably his ex-former nice secretary of state George Shultz, to see this militarization and house that Russia is attempting to do to, you realize, provide you with new satellites that -and nuclear issues. Reagan and Schultz needed to start out decreasing nuclear weapons on the earth, not improve them.
ROBERT COSTA: International coverage additionally a problem for President Biden. I keep in mind we would be up on Capitol Hill in latest a long time masking him when he was chairman of the Senate International Relations committee. Now he is been centered on Ukraine, centered on the Center East.
You heard from Congressman Clyburn, I requested concerning the protests at a few of these Democratic occasions concerning the Biden administration’s assist for Israel in its struggle with Gaza.
How does the Biden White Home, and your Biden sources, take into consideration international coverage, particularly what is going on on in Israel, as they attempt to impress their very own coalition?
AMIE PARNES: That is the massive drawback proper now and the massive query. They’re attempting to stroll this tightrope, if you’ll, as a result of they need to appease the bottom. The bottom isn’t joyful. They know they are not joyful. And also you see him slowly strolling again. You understand, h was very, very deferential to Israel within the early days of the struggle. Now you are seeing it much less and fewer. However I feel you are – he is going have to elucidate and speak to the folks extra about what is going on.
I nonetheless do not assume, although, Bob, that it will come right down to international coverage, that this election is about international coverage. It is not 2004. I feel that it’s going to come right down to the economic system and perhaps immigration and abortion as to type of subsequent points, however I feel the economic system is what is basically, actually, actually going to drive this election and voters. And apathy. You understand, if – if they’re feeling like nobody perceive them, in the event that they’re feeling like they can not relate to both facet, there’s the concern that they might keep residence or they might vote for a 3rd celebration. And that must be additionally what’s worrying Democrats proper now.
ROBERT COSTA: And, shortly, Amie, they’re maintaining a tally of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Cornell West and their unbiased candidacies on the White Home?
AMIE PARNES: They’re. It’s extremely actual as a result of they have a look at what occurred in 2016, how Jill Stein type of wrecked this for Hillary Clinton. She was one of many causes, clearly. They’re apprehensive, and they need to be apprehensive, as a result of – as a result of individuals are so – I feel indifference is a big storyline on this election. The gamers are two folks we all know. They’re baked in. Individuals learn about them. The polls say what they’ll say. I do not know if it will change that a lot.
ROBERT COSTA: And, Doug, lastly, I used to be on the streets of New York this week, not strolling round, I used to be masking former President Trump and his authorized challenges in Manhattan.
Step again as a historian. To have Trump going through a hush cash felony trial beginning in March, paying probably tons of of hundreds of thousands of {dollars} in a civil fraud case, two looming federal trials on the horizon, additionally Georgia, we have by no means seeing something like this.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY: I do know.
ROBERT COSTA: I do know unprecedented looks as if we use that phrase on a regular basis, however, actually, we’ve not seen something prefer it.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY: We now have not. It makes, you realize, Spiro Agnew’s little bribery factor look quaint looking back, you realize? Nixon’s guys hauled him in. And Ehrlichman and Dean going – doing a bit jail time over a bungled third charge housebreaking look quaint. That is anyone, Donald Trump, who’s been a predatory capitalist getting cash from wherever he can and making up merchandise, elevating his personal self-worth.
So, what does it remind one in every of? One other American custom, gangsters and cons within the sense that we elevate them. I imply you go to Chicago, you do not hear the tales of the – the good politicians of that period, you hear about Al Capone and, you realize, and Dillinger within the west, Billy the Child and the likes. He was type of an outlaw president in our – an ex-president and our nation – rather a lot within the nation like that.
ROBERT COSTA: And Trump, after all, denies any wrongdoing in all of these case.
Douglas Brinkley, Amie Parnes, we actually recognize it.
And we’ll be again in a second.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ROBERT COSTA: A celebration final week in Kansas Metropolis that was meant to mark the Chiefs’ win within the Tremendous Bowl took a horrifying flip when a burst of gunfire killed one particular person and injured almost two dozen others.
Our Mark Strassmann has extra.
(BEGIN VT)
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Gunshots, panic on parade in Kansas Metropolis. A Tremendous Bowl celebration hijacked. One other American second, shattered.
MAN: I used to be simply crying rather a lot.
MARK STRASSMANN: Sure.
MAN: Sure.
MARK STRASSMANN: You needed to have been terrified.
MAN: Sure, I used to be terrified. I used to be traumatized.
MARK STRASSMANN: With immediately’s gun violence, there is no such thing as a sacred house. Inside this Houston megachurch final Sunday, a girl stormed in firing an AR-15. She was shot and killed by off-duty law enforcement officials after a operating gun battle.
MAN: It is scary. It’s, it is scary.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): On common, greater than 325 Individuals are shot each day. Final 12 months noticed 656 mass shootings, outlined as 4 or extra victims.
WOMAN: Traveled the world and felt rather a lot safer there than I did in my very own metropolis.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): We’re twitchy. Bullet by bullet, gun violence grafts onto each stresses.
ARTHUR EVANS JR. (Ph.D., CEO and Government Vice President, The American Psychological Affiliation): Individuals are experiencing vicarious trauma.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Dr. Arthur Evans, CEO of the American Psychological Affiliation.
MARK STRASSMANN: How vital is that this stress?
ARTHUR EVANS JR.: We now have a couple of third of individuals within the nation who’re saying that their habits has modified due to mass shootings.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Proper after mass shootings, Evans says 75 % of Individuals report vital stress, and that oldsters of younger youngsters particularly have issues about their children’ security.
ARTHUR EVANS JR.: Once you’re speaking about church buildings and synagogues and buying malls, we’ve much less of a capability to distance and – and – and I feel that has a distinct type of an affect on us.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): On the polarizing concern of weapons, a majority, 56 %, favor extra restrictions in response to Gallup.
MAN: I am a gun proprietor. It must be, you realize, tougher for sure people to acquire a gun.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Proudly owning weapons makes hundreds of thousands of Individuals really feel extra in management. However with gun violence, nervousness climbs as a result of folks really feel they’ve misplaced management.
MAN: Why have not I obtained shot? I do not know.
MARK STRASSMANN (voice over): Weapons in crowds have develop into a brand new American nervousness. Kansas Metropolis, a reminder of Denver’s NBA championship parade final 12 months when two folks had been shot.
MICHAEL MALONE (Denver Nuggets Head Coach): Individuals simply cannot go purchase a gun or an assault rifle and go kill folks. I imply, like, what number of extra folks need to die earlier than we modify that?
(END VT)
ROBERT COSTA: We’ll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ROBERT COSTA: That is it for us immediately. Thanks for watching. Margaret can be again subsequent week. For FACE THE NATION, I am Robert Costa.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
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