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TERRY GROSS, HOST:
That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. We had deliberate an interview about how excessive and disruptive the far-right members of the Home of Representatives have change into. I recorded that interview with New York Occasions congressional correspondent Annie Karni yesterday morning. Later within the day, particular counsel Jack Smith indicted former President Donald Trump on three counts of conspiracy – to defraud the U.S., to hinder an official authorities continuing and to deprive individuals of civil rights offered by federal legislation or the Structure. There’s additionally a fourth depend of obstructing an official continuing. On January 6, the day of the assault on the Capitol, Annie Karni was a New York Occasions White Home correspondent. She got here again to the studio this morning to debate the brand new prices towards Trump. A bit of later, we’ll hear the interview I recorded along with her yesterday.
Annie Karni, thanks for coming again to the studio.
ANNIE KARNI: Thanks for having me.
GROSS: So that you had already reported a few of what’s on this new charging doc. And lots of what’s on this doc was additionally within the January 6 Home choose committee. What did you be taught that was new?
KARNI: To start with, this appeared like a 45-page, form of slimmed-down model of the 845-page January 6 report that the Home Investigative Committee put out final yr. And the narrative general was just about an identical. It is a narrative that anybody who tuned into these hearings that have been carried in primetime is accustomed to, that Trump was uncontrolled on the time, refusing to go away workplace, mendacity and harming the nation’s democracy as he tried to cling to energy. And to me, essentially the most compelling a part of the narrative each occasions, in studying the indictment final night time and in watching these committee hearings, is the strain on Pence and him simply persevering with to insist that he did not have the facility to overturn the election and the way that rose to, you realize, his life being in jeopardy and him having to cover within the Capitol whereas Trump was within the White Home doing nothing to cease the violence for hours.
So it is dramatic to see this as prices – lots of the costs introduced by the Justice Division have been really prices that the January 6 committee really helpful final yr. So principally, it is overlap and acquainted, but it surely’s form of an extremely historic and dramatic second to see him indicted on prices like this.
GROSS: What have you learnt about how Home Republicans on the far proper who’re nonetheless supporting Trump – reacting to those new indictments?
KARNI: There weren’t lots of surprises within the statements we noticed final night time. That is Trump’s third indictment. It is by far essentially the most severe. And it is also completely different for Home Republicans ‘trigger lots of them are implicated in attempting to additional this massive lie. However when it comes to the statements, I imply, it is virtually paint by numbers by now with a few of these ardent defenders, you could possibly – like, Elise Stefanik was up first saying Trump will probably be sworn in in 2025. Kevin McCarthy defended him and mentioned the entire thing was an try to distract from what they’re discovering out about Hunter Biden. Marjorie Taylor Greene threatened that she would not vote to fund, you realize, the DOJ and the particular counsel’s workplace.
A variety of the – oh, I noticed it – not – she’s not a member of Congress, however Kari Lake, the failed gubernatorial candidate in Arizona, known as on all of the Republican candidates within the 2024 race to right away drop out and assist Trump. So lots of that is what you could possibly count on from these defenders whose total political identities are utterly tied to Trump. With Kevin McCarthy, he owes his speakership to Donald Trump. He wouldn’t have been in a position to go that debt ceiling deal with out Trump agreeing to remain silent and never criticize the deal. His entire speakership will depend on not alienating Donald Trump. So you could possibly name it lame, the assertion he put out, but it surely’s not stunning and it makes political sense for him.
That is simply barely completely different for these Home Republicans as a result of many of those ardent defenders voted to decertify the election. They repeated his massive lie. They proceed to take action. And their position in that is going to must be form of relitigated as this story works its manner by way of the courts.
GROSS: I preserve questioning if by defending Trump, the members of Congress who voted to decertify the Electoral Faculty vote, in the event that they’re defending themselves as a result of they’re implicated. They did attempt to overturn the outcomes of the election. Eight senators and 139 representatives voted to decertify the Electoral Faculty vote. So I do not know what number of of them are nonetheless left in Congress now, however do you suppose that by defending Trump, these individuals who voted to decertify the Electoral Faculty outcomes are additionally defending themselves?
KARNI: I believe they’re. And lots of them nonetheless are in Congress. And lots of the bottom – you realize, this massive lie that, you realize, the election was stolen is a giant a part of what lots of the hardcore base believes now. It is definitional. So they’re defending themselves. They’re defending their attraction with their constituents. And so they’re up to now in at this level on this narrative – this false narrative. I imply, they tried to discredit the work of the January 6 committee the whole manner by way of. So, I imply, this can be a historic, dramatic second, however they have been repeating this false narrative for, you realize, years now. It is no shock that they’d keep it up at this level.
GROSS: Congress returns from the August recess in September. To keep away from a authorities shutdown, they must fund 11 extra spending payments earlier than October 1. What are the implications for a authorities shutdown now that now we have this new set of prices towards Trump?
KARNI: Properly, yeah. I imply, these charging paperwork have nice big-picture implications for democracy and the way forward for our nation, however granularly for Congress, we noticed some statements put out final night time that, you realize, increase actual questions on funding the federal government. In September, as an example, Marjorie Taylor Greene mentioned that the indictment was a line within the sand and that she won’t vote to fund a weaponized authorities whereas it politically persecutes not solely President Trump however all conservative Individuals. She mentioned the DOJ has gone rogue, and he or she won’t vote to fund these Communist organizations which are doing the bidding of Joe Biden. So if we see extra Republicans undertake that – I imply, that is fairly excessive – however undertake a line that if that is what the federal government’s going to be doing, they can not vote for funding the federal government, that may very well be the nail within the coffin for appropriations payments this fall if that is the way in which Republicans select to retaliate and search revenge for Trump.
GROSS: Annie, thanks for coming again for this replace.
KARNI: Thanks a lot.
GROSS: I spoke to Annie Karni this morning. She’s a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions and a former Occasions White Home correspondent. OK. Let’s get to the interview I recorded along with her yesterday concerning the far proper in Congress. Congress is out on recess and will not return till mid-September. It would have solely till October 1 to avert a authorities shutdown. Eleven extra spending payments would first must go, however the far-right wing of the Home has added amendments to spending payments, together with measures that may additional prohibit abortion and transgender medical care. And people payments with these amendments could be not possible to go within the Senate, and President Biden would possible veto them in the event that they did.
Annie Karni has written about how the exhausting proper within the Home has been increasing and fracturing as its members wrestle to determine how one can exert their energy and the way they’re additionally divided over how disruptive they wish to be. She’s lined the current fights amongst Republicans within the Home, in addition to fights between Home Democrats and Republicans. Annie Karni, welcome to FRESH AIR. So the hard-right faction within the Home retains shifting additional to the suitable. Now you’ve got received not solely the Home Freedom Caucus, however one other group that is moved even additional to the suitable known as the 20. How would you evaluate the 20 to the Freedom Caucus?
KARNI: The 20 has lots of overlap with the Freedom Caucus. A variety of these members are each within the 20 and within the Freedom Caucus. However the 20 additionally contains a few of the most excessive voices within the Home, essentially the most anti-McCarthy voices within the Home, like Consultant Matt Gaetz of Florida, who shouldn’t be within the Freedom Caucus. And the 20 type of fashioned through the audio system battle because the holdouts to McCarthy’s speakership. They’re essentially the most populist members of the Home Republican Convention who wish to be extra disruptive to McCarthy’s management of the Home than the Freedom Caucus general, which is a bigger group which are there for a lot of completely different causes.
GROSS: So 11 extra spending payments must go to keep away from a authorities shutdown. And Republicans have put what’s thought of tradition warfare points into a few of the spending payments. So give us a few examples of how, like, abortion and transgender care now determine into spending payments.
KARNI: Properly, the largest invoice that we noticed change into laden with these tradition warfare social points was the protection invoice, the place the Home handed a deeply partisan protection invoice that may restrict abortion entry and transgender care and variety coaching for army personnel. These are issues that have been added to the invoice by way of amendments, that haven’t any likelihood of passing the Democratic-controlled Senate, however have been an enormous win for the exhausting proper within the Home for forcing McCarthy to go the invoice with these additions. And they’re…
GROSS: May I cease for a second? What is the level of that? Like, in the event that they know that it will possibly’t presumably go, what is the level?
KARNI: It is a manner of flexing their muscle tissue and saying, we wish these socially conservative insurance policies governmentwide, and we’re prepared to close down the federal government and have full dysfunction in the event you – if we do not get our manner. But additionally a part of it’s they wish to present their base and their voters that they are combating, that they are getting amendments to main payments as a result of they’re combating for his or her priorities. So I believe it is an enormous victory for them that the Home could not go a invoice with out their priorities included in it. It is also a technique that’s difficult for Republicans as a result of McCarthy is giving these concessions to the exhausting proper as a result of they may block him from even having a vote on this invoice if they do not get these amendments they need. However there are lots of Republicans in aggressive districts who must take these votes on limiting abortion entry or transgender care which are going to make their reelections way more tough and put McCarthy within the place of probably dropping management of the Home.
GROSS: So within the protection spending invoice, you may have amendments to finish a coverage guaranteeing entry to abortion to service members, permitting them to journey to a state the place abortion is authorized in the event that they’re based mostly in a state the place it is not, to eradicate the Pentagon’s Workplace of Variety, Fairness and Inclusion and to forestall the army well being plan from protecting gender transition surgical procedures. It form of seems like a Ron DeSantis agenda, particularly with the diversity-equity-inclusion, since that is such a giant factor for him, is not it?
KARNI: Sure, it is fairly exhausting proper. And it is a questionable technique when lots of these Republicans who ended up supporting it ran in elections the place abortion was on the poll, and it harm them considerably. A method that they received round this was arguing that this wasn’t a invoice about abortion. It was about taxpayers paying for journey for army members for elective procedures. In order that they tried to say it was nearly taxpayers paying for the journey and that it wasn’t one other anti-abortion vote. However lots of Republicans from reasonable districts are very involved that it seems to be just like the get together is simply being very merciless to girls voters and doubling down, tripling down, after the overturning of Roe v. Wade on abortion particularly.
GROSS: So additionally on this protection spending invoice is defunding the warfare in Ukraine. Are you able to clarify why the suitable wing of the Home needs to defund the warfare?
KARNI: Sure. I imply, that is one place the place the amendments that wished to strip applications to coach and equip Ukrainian troopers failed dramatically. So that is nonetheless a problem the place lots of Republicans agree with Democrats that the US ought to proceed to fund the warfare in Ukraine. The exhausting proper – Marjorie Taylor Greene, Matt Gaetz – supplied these amendments that we must always cease funding wars overseas. However this can be a cut up within the get together. And we have seen Donald Trump over the weekend siding with this far proper, saying we should not be sending extra money over there. For now, these have been the 2 amendments that failed spectacularly. And Democrats are very relieved that almost all of Republicans are with them on Ukraine.
GROSS: Bob Good, who’s a Home member, a Republican from Virginia, mentioned we must always not worry a shutdown. Most of what we do up right here is unhealthy anyway. Is that consultant of what lots of right-wing Republicans suppose?
KARNI: It’s. We have seen them speak about how foolish Congress is at many factors. That’s indicative of what lots of the hard-right members suppose. They have been despatched right here to disrupt Washington, they usually suppose authorities principally is unhealthy. We noticed them when a faction of the exhausting proper shut down the Home ground. They argued, what does it actually matter? We’re solely passing silly messaging payments anyway. We have seen them form of make enjoyable of their very own agenda after they’re in charge of the Home whereas shutting down the federal government. So I believe that’s the view of the 20 and much more of these Freedom Caucus members, that authorities is admittedly unhealthy anyway. What is the massive deal if it shuts down?
GROSS: So what’s McCarthy attempting to do to forestall a shutdown?
KARNI: One factor we do not know is how a lot these hard-right members will flex their muscle tissue and attempt to cease the federal government from working this fall. One factor McCarthy may do is a stopgap funding invoice that may preserve the federal government working quickly. And a giant query that we do not know the reply to but is, would the Freedom Caucus block one thing like that from coming to the ground? And so they have not actually answered that. We requested them that final week at a press convention. And Andy Biggs, who’s a Republican from Arizona and a Freedom Caucus member, mentioned, we’ll strategize on that afterward. That is type of what we have been speaking about earlier, that it is not clear how hardcore they wish to be about shutting down the federal government. They may. We do not know but. However McCarthy may strive a stopgap funding invoice to maintain the federal government working. However the consensus as they left for his or her August recess was {that a} shutdown could be very possible.
GROSS: All proper. On that observe, let’s take a brief break right here, after which we’ll discuss some extra. If you happen to’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’ll be proper again. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE CURE SONG, “IN BETWEEN DAYS”)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’re speaking concerning the far-right wing of the Home of Representatives and the way they’re stopping Speaker Kevin McCarthy from controlling his convention and the way the far proper may pressure a authorities shutdown beginning in October.
So now now we have two far-right teams throughout the Home. There’s the Freedom Caucus, which was based in 2015, and the a lot newer group, the 20. They’re each disruptive teams. The 20 is additional to the suitable and maybe extra about disruption than even the Freedom Caucus. What are a few of the methods they’ve used along with what we have been speaking about, placing amendments which are not possible to go in spending payments? What are a few of their disruptive techniques?
KARNI: In all probability their most disruptive second was in June after they staged a blockade of the Home ground to specific their anger over the debt restrict deal that McCarthy solid with President Biden. And so they did one thing that hasn’t been finished for many years within the Home, which is actually freeze the Home ground so McCarthy couldn’t convey laws to a vote. They view themselves as this extra environment friendly combating pressure than the Freedom Caucus general, which is populated by lots of people who’re really McCarthy allies at this level and wouldn’t have stood in his manner like that.
GROSS: Remind us how they blocked the Home ground.
KARNI: So this can be a little procedural, but it surely was fairly fascinating. Earlier than a invoice involves the ground for a vote, the Home has to go a rule that enables the invoice to come back to the ground. And usually, how Congress works is the rule is a party-line vote. You are purported to vote your conscience on the invoice and vote get together on the rule. So even in the event you plan to vote no on the invoice, you vote sure on the rule in case your get together is in energy. And what the exhausting proper did in June is that they voted with Democrats to take down a rule, basically which means that McCarthy could not get his invoice on the ground.
On the time, it was a – it – the stakes couldn’t have been decrease. The invoice in query was about banning gasoline stoves. It was a messaging invoice that had no likelihood of passage within the Senate, but it surely was an indication that they’ll do that each time they wish to stage a hissy match and simply utterly freeze the federal government from functioning by taking down a rule. In order that was form of a hard-line tactic. And so they did that to indicate, we’re furious on the debt ceiling deal. And you have to do not forget that we view this as a power-sharing settlement right here, and we are going to block you out of your agenda in the event you go insurance policies that we do not agree with.
GROSS: And the far proper sees this as a power-sharing settlement with McCarthy as a result of they made a cope with McCarthy – we’ll vote for you if, and if included form of energy sharing, proper?
KARNI: Sure. They voted for him saying we’ll vote for you in the event you give us all of those concessions that give us nice energy, like three seats on the Guidelines Committee, which is the committee that decides what laws involves the ground, agreeing to a brand new rule that enables a snap vote, that enables any member to name a vote to oust the speaker at any time, some agreements on these authorities spending payments. In order that they really feel like they personal him. He made these agreements with them, and that is the one purpose he is speaker. And that June second after they shut down the ground was a reminder – hey, you’ll be able to’t operate with out us.
GROSS: Properly, let’s take one other break right here, after which we’ll discuss some extra. If you happen to’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’ll discuss extra after a break. I am Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF TAYLOR HASKINS’ “ALBERTO BALSALM”)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let’s get again to my interview with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’re speaking concerning the far-right wing of the Home of Representatives and the way they’re stopping Speaker Kevin McCarthy from controlling his convention. We’re additionally speaking about how the exhausting proper might pressure the federal government to close down in October.
You recognize, one factor I typically surprise is among the concessions that McCarthy made to get elected Home speaker is that just one member of the Home is required to take away him as speaker. So I ponder, like, since a few of them hate him a lot, why hasn’t anybody stepped ahead to take away him?
KARNI: That is the million-dollar query that is all the time hanging over him. And will it occur within the fall? When will it occur? I believe a part of why it hasn’t occurred but is similar purpose that he emerged victorious in January, which is that there is not any clear various, and no clear various has actually emerged. And arguably, this – what they’re doing, the place they’ll freeze the Home ground – and that week in June the place they stopped legislature from coming to the ground, McCarthy needed to ship everybody residence for per week and begin once more the following week. The truth that they’ll form of do that to him at any second arguably is worse. It is like torturing him consistently slightly than one fell swoop.
GROSS: However having a weak speaker, in a manner, provides the exhausting proper energy since they’ll management him or manipulate him.
KARNI: It does. In some methods, that is nice for them. I imply, he is giving them concessions on, to begin with, in turning into speaker after which on every of those payments, as we mentioned on the protection invoice. He caves to them at each flip. And in some methods, McCarthy is the right speaker for this Republican convention, which does not wish to be led. It’s a group of people that don’t desire top-down management. That does not work for them anymore. So in some sense, he is the right man for the job for a convention that does not wish to be led.
GROSS: So there are some individuals who have – from the exhausting proper – who’ve aligned with Speaker McCarthy. One among them is Jim Jordan, who’s now head of the Home Judiciary Committee. So was that a part of a deal that Jordan made with McCarthy with a purpose to get Jordan’s vote for McCarthy as speaker?
KARNI: Completely. That was a deal made way back. McCarthy’s technique for rising to change into speaker was to ameliorate a few of these threats from the suitable, and Jim Jordan was considered one of them. He promised him probably the most highly effective committee chairmanships, judiciary, and introduced him into the fold and basically defanged him. Jordan is a McCarthy ally now and truly does not get lots of anger from the exhausting proper for that as a result of partly, they wish to see their individuals in actual management positions. And there’s some understanding that as a committee chair, you’ll be able to’t be a bomb thrower. However there’s different ones, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who’ve additionally been form of co-opted by McCarthy, who’ve gotten lots of anger for that transfer from the exhausting proper.
GROSS: How did she change into aligned with McCarthy?
KARNI: She made a really strategic choice through the speaker’s race that she was going to be with him. And judging by the Marjorie Taylor Greene that we witnessed within the final Congress, that was type of a surprising pairing. She was this outsider who had been stripped of her committees by Democrats and was most likely essentially the most well-known individual in Congress for spreading conspiracy theories and simply being actually far-out fringe character. She got here again this Congress eager to be seen as a extra severe participant, and he or she solid this alliance with McCarthy that has served her effectively.
He – she was loyal to him through the moments when it actually appeared like he was going to fail but once more at rising to change into a speaker. And he has repaid her with treating her like a high coverage adviser, standing up for her, fundraising for her, like, treating her like a severe member of Congress, which is what she’s change into now in McCarthy – within the McCarthy-led Home.
GROSS: Yeah. And as you identified, she believes in conspiracy theories. She’s the one who mentioned that Jewish house lasers have been liable for wildfires; 9/11 was an inside job. She believes a few of the QAnon conspiracy theories. She mentioned that Parkland and Sandy Hook shootings have been staged. So she’s actually on the market.
KARNI: She’s actually on the market. And he or she’s type of apologized for a few of these earlier statements and says she does not consider a few of that stuff anymore. However what’s fascinating is that none of that was the rationale that she alienated the Freedom Caucus. They have been tremendous to have her as a member when that was her, what she was recognized for. The factor that actually broke the group along with her was that she grew to become a McCarthy ally. That was the unthinkable breach that received her kicked out of the Freedom Caucus.
GROSS: However the extra official purpose was that she received right into a battle with Lauren Boebert, and Greene known as Boebert slightly b****.
KARNI: Sure, however that was form of the…
GROSS: Pretext?
KARNI: …The pretext, the precise occasion that occurred to pressure a vote. However what has actually been occurring for the previous few months is simply full anger at her for standing with McCarthy through the speaker’s race, standing with him and supporting his debt-ceiling deal. That battle was about – these two have by no means favored one another. Within the public consciousness, they’re type of – we consider them collectively as a result of there’s this well-known picture of them each heckling the president on the State of the Union. And so they’re each these far-right girls who’re undoubtedly the present horses, not the workhorses of Congress. I imply, they love consideration – social media, Fox Information hits, et cetera. However they’ve lengthy disliked one another personally.
However the battle on the Home ground was about Lauren Boebert shifting forward, introducing an article of impeachment towards Biden that Greene claimed had been her concept first. In order that they’re combating over, like, who will get credit score for being the primary to come back out with impeachment articles towards Biden on the Home ground.
GROSS: So what do they every stand for, Greene and Boebert? Is there a distinction between what they stand for when it comes to, you realize, coverage or techniques?
KARNI: Oh, gosh. I do not suppose that coverage is what’s driving Lauren Boebert or Marjorie Taylor Greene. I believe techniques is a greater query. These are members who need consideration. Lauren Boebert is now beloved on the far proper. So the tactic right here is wanting such as you’re pushing Trump’s agenda, being anti-Biden, pushing McCarthy – McCarthy did not need her article of impeachment to get a vote on the Home ground. It was not going by way of common order. So she – this was, like, a triple whammy for Lauren Boebert. It is wanting such as you’re main the cost on an impeachment article towards Biden. It is inflicting McCarthy a headache, and it is getting lots of consideration and getting you on, you realize, cable information. In order that’s, I believe, lots of what she’s about in Congress. She’s actually not favored by lots of her colleagues who do not belief her, who see her as simply not there for the suitable causes.
Marjorie Taylor Greene has taken a totally completely different tactical method the place she’s attempting this inside sport this Congress. She’s attempting to have a seat on the desk with management, and I can sense it within the halls of Congress. She is going to cease and discuss to a reporter from The New York Occasions and have a nice forwards and backwards that was all videotaped and aggressive. And he or she’s simply altering the way in which she operates in Congress to raise herself slightly bit.
GROSS: Now, does that describe you, that she’s having precise interviews with you?
KARNI: I imply, I simply keep in mind a second through the speaker’s race the place I attempted to seize her as she was leaving the chamber, and he or she was completely well mannered. She mentioned, I am simply working to the lavatory. Are you able to wait right here for me? And he or she got here again and sat and listened to my questions and answered them. And, you realize, from my understanding of my colleagues, that didn’t was how she used to work together with, quote-unquote, “the mainstream media.” She would have an aide taping it. It could be a factor the place it appeared like she was attempting to create some viral second the place she took on, you realize, the press. However that is not how she’s behaving anymore.
GROSS: I suppose. However calling Boebert the B-word on the Home ground is not an instance of Marjorie Taylor Greene elevating herself.
KARNI: No, I imply, I additionally suppose that the truth that they’re arguing about, you stole my impeachment article, is, you realize, highschool or simply full silliness. And I believe that there is only a longtime lack of respect and frustration and possibly competitors amongst these girls who’re taking part in this fame sport by way of elected workplace.
GROSS: Properly, let’s take one other break right here. If you happen to’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’ll be proper again after a break. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BOOKER ERVIN’S “THE BLUE BOOK”)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’re speaking concerning the far-right wing of the Home and the way they’re stopping Speaker McCarthy from controlling his convention and the way the far proper might pressure the federal government to close down shortly after Congress resumes. They resume in mid-September. The shutdown may occur October 1.
KARNI: Yeah, it is more likely to occur October 1. And so they left Washington final week with 11 appropriations payments to go after they come again and no actual confidence that that is doable.
GROSS: Let’s speak about impeachment. Republicans wished to question Biden earlier than he even entered the White Home. And, you realize, we have talked about how Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert have been combating about who launched the impeachment invoice in Congress. The place does Congress stand now when it comes to attempting to question President Biden?
KARNI: It is difficult. The article of impeachment that Lauren Boebert launched was immigration-related. I do not even wish to get into the small print as a result of it was very clear to most Republicans that the bar of excessive crimes and misdemeanors in the case of Biden’s immigration insurance policies is not actually there. Everybody agrees that the border is a disaster, however what crimes has Biden dedicated? No Republicans I talked to thought this was, like, a extremely nice path to go down. And so they did not wish to try this impeachment article. After which what they managed to form of shunt it off to 2 highly effective committees the place they’ll research it. But additionally shunting off to committees is lots of the occasions what you do to laws that you just simply wish to by no means hear about once more.
In order that they did not wish to try this. However then a couple of weeks later, Kevin McCarthy begins speaking a couple of Biden impeachment and speaking extra critically about these enterprise offers and the Hunter Biden stuff and elevating the specter of impeachment on these different points and speaking extra critically about the opportunity of beginning an impeachment inquiry. To again up, they’ve known as for his impeachment and launched a dozen resolutions accusing him of excessive crimes and misdemeanors final yr. However then through the marketing campaign, McCarthy tried to form of tone down the opportunity of impeachment, saying the nation does not like political impeachments. And it is true, they’re, like, wildly unpopular.
So the query of what’s he really going to do, I believe it relies upon lots on what Trump needs, as a result of in lots of methods, McCarthy’s Home, as the one department of presidency that’s managed by Republicans proper now, oftentimes acts as Trump’s instrument of political revenge and retaliation. It is one other strategy to give to the exhausting proper and to present to Trump whereas attempting to go the debt ceiling, go the appropriations payments. It is a strategy to form of give slightly little bit of carrot to the far proper to appear like, I am severe about impeachment. And I believe that there is a likelihood that Republicans suppose that by beginning an impeachment inquiry, it may additionally assist them with their investigation into the Biden household funds, assist them uncover extra. It is a manner of getting extra data on this investigation the place there hasn’t actually been a giant discovering but that they’ve been hoping for.
GROSS: So if Republicans within the Home resolve to maneuver ahead with attempting to question President Biden, what would the costs possible be, have you learnt?
KARNI: The realm they wish to take a look at is the Biden household funds that they suppose should be investigated. And so they suppose that there’s corruption on the backside of this that implicates the president and that an impeachment inquiry, in line with Kevin McCarthy, would permit Congress to get the data to disclose this corruption scheme. And he has floated the opportunity of beginning an impeachment inquiry, which might be step one to bringing articles of impeachment. This has come up on the similar time that the problem of expunging Trump’s impeachments has come up, and it is developing on the similar time that Trump is coping with a number of indictments on his personal. So I actually do suppose that this can be a second the place they’re methods for the Home to retaliate politically.
GROSS: What does expunge imply on this context? Saying…
KARNI: It means…
GROSS: …That it was illegitimate or saying, like, oh, it by no means actually occurred or it does not depend?
KARNI: …That it was illegitimate and that it – that he wasn’t actually – like, taking it away, pretending – yeah, wiping his file clear that it was illegitimate and politically motivated. These efforts are being led by Elise Stefanik of New York, who might be Trump’s No. 1 ally within the Home, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is also a Trump ally. Additionally, Stefanik and Greene are McCarthy allies who wouldn’t be pushing this with out his consent. So that is one thing that McCarthy has mentioned he is OK with. It does not have the votes proper now, so they don’t seem to be going anyplace proper now. However it’s one thing to present to Trump to indicate that they – you realize, they’re combating for him. McCarthy is unlikely to convey these expungements to a vote if it does not have the votes to go. So proper now, they’re simply speaking to extra members about them and attempting to get the votes. However it’s one thing that McCarthy has mentioned he backs, and it is only a matter of getting sufficient assist.
GROSS: All proper. Let’s take one other break right here. If you happen to’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’ll discuss extra after a break. That is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF QUADRO NUEVO’S “TU VUO”)
GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to the interview I recorded with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. We’re speaking concerning the far-right wing of the Home and the way they’re stopping Speaker McCarthy from controlling his convention and the way the exhausting proper might pressure the federal government to close down come October.
So one other actually massive battle within the Home was when Republicans voted to censure Adam Schiff. This was on June 21. And it was for, quote, “deceptive the American public and for conduct unbecoming a member of the Home of Representatives” and for his, quote, “falsehoods, misrepresentations and abuse of delicate data.” What occurred whereas Speaker McCarthy was attempting to learn the censure?
KARNI: It was type of a dramatic second on the ground. Democrats began to chant, disgrace, disgrace, disgrace. Simply two members of the Home have been censured in 4 many years earlier than the Schiff censure. And, you realize, this was additionally simply one other second of the suitable hijacking the ground. Initially, the congresswoman who introduced this to the ground, Anna Paulina Luna, she’s a Republican from Florida, a hard-right member of the Freedom Caucus – McCarthy did not need her to convey this up, and her first try failed miserably. He privately wished her to do that by way of committee and thru common order.
However once more, he could not management it. She introduced it up by way of a privileged decision which permits her to simply convey one thing to the ground. So it was one other instance of McCarthy’s lack of management of the ground, a hard-right member simply pushing ahead along with her personal agenda and this, like, actually personalised politics the place, once more, it looks as if Home Republicans are appearing as taking out revenge for Trump, the place Adam Schiff was a – you realize, considered one of his political opponents through the impeachment, and now they’re form of attempting to get him again. Political retribution.
GROSS: So do all of those prices stem from his actions through the impeachment – the primary impeachment of Donald Trump?
KARNI: Sure. And, actually, the primary…
GROSS: Which was led by Adam Schiff?
KARNI: Sure. And the primary try at censuring him, which failed, embrace a $16 million tremendous, which Luna mentioned she got here up with as a result of it was half the price of that impeachment continuing. It will definitely did go when she altered the language to take away that tremendous as a result of even some Republicans thought that was unconstitutional to personally tremendous him $16 Million. However it was utterly about his position within the Trump impeachment. The entire thing pissed off lots of Republicans as a result of they do not like Adam Schiff and, you realize, they considered this as an in-kind contribution to his Senate marketing campaign. He is working for Dianne Feinstein’s Senate seat proper now. And this was a – form of a political fundraising boon for him. I imply, I received tons of fundraising emails from Adam Schiff saying, I am the Republicans No. 1 bogeyman. Give me $5. And it elevated him as they have been attacking him.
GROSS: So this bigger battle over the censure of Adam Schiff between Democrats and Republicans leads to a form of private battle between Eric Swalwell, a Democrat from California who was an impeachment supervisor for the second impeachment of President Trump – between Swalwell and Speaker McCarthy. So this begins on the Home ground. Describe what you realize about this battle.
KARNI: This began in this sort of heated second on the Home ground after the Schiff censure, the place Democrats have been actually enraged that this was occurring and shouting disgrace. And Swalwell, who, together with Schiff, has already been kicked off of the intel committee by McCarthy, runs into him and simply says to him, you are a weak man, on the Home ground. And McCarthy, in line with this report in The Every day Beast, was visibly upset by this confrontation. It form of saved going into the following day, the place they run to one another once more simply outdoors the chamber and are mainly, in line with the report, moving into one another’s faces. And McCarthy’s actually furious and says, you realize, in the event you ever say one thing like that to me once more, I am – you realize, threatens to get bodily violent.
GROSS: Properly, I believe what he was reacting to…
KARNI: Does not really occur.
GROSS: I believe what he was reacting to, what McCarthy was reacting to, was that it was reported that Swalwell known as him the P-word.
KARNI: Sure.
GROSS: And McCarthy mentioned, in the event you ever name me that once more, I’ll kick your – I will use the clear phrase – behind. I’ll kick your behind.
KARNI: Yeah, yeah. I imply, you realize, it is – to begin with, this was reported by The Every day Beast, however nobody concerned denied the alternate. However it’s fascinating to me to – you hardly ever see Kevin McCarthy present anger like that. I believe his superpower is that this sunny disposition. And after we’ve watched him be mortified in public on a number of events this Congress, beginning with the speaker’s battle, the place, I imply, it is simply complete embarrassment dwell on tv, and he smiles and says, it is not the way you begin; it is the way you end. He has, like, a bromide from his dad, and he is all the time smiling. It is, like, form of exceptional how he does not normally present lots of anger. So that is – clearly, the insult reduce to one thing within him, and the unhealthy blood with Swalwell, one other younger Californian – clearly, there’s some, like, actual private animus there ‘trigger it is an uncommon second for McCarthy.
GROSS: Are you able to think about the opportunity of a fistfight really erupting within the Home? We appear to be simply, like, inches away from that.
KARNI: You recognize, I can. I imply, we noticed – we mainly noticed that through the speaker’s battle. On the very finish, you realize…
GROSS: Proper.
KARNI: …A member lunged at Matt Gaetz and needed to be held again. So, sure, completely. We see it on a regular basis.
GROSS: And people have been two Republicans.
KARNI: Yeah. And, you realize, there’s been shouting matches. The opposite day, popping out of the Home, Jamaal Bowman, who’s a progressive Democrat from New York, received right into a screaming match with Marjorie Taylor Greene, and AOC needed to pull him away saying, she ain’t value it, bro. So it is effervescent on a regular basis. These – you realize, whether or not it is Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene or cross-party fights, issues appear like it would not take that far to get to, like, a punch thrown, I do not suppose. Completely.
GROSS: So yet one more query. Is it particularly thrilling to – or miserable – to cowl Congress at occasions like this when it’d shut down, when there’s fights breaking out between Democrats and Republicans and even throughout the Republican Social gathering itself? I imply, it is your authorities. On the similar time…
KARNI: It is form of each.
GROSS: …There’s lots of motion. Yeah.
KARNI: It is form of – it is slightly little bit of each. I imply, it is not boring. There’s 1,000,000 tales. There’s by no means a quiet week. You suppose it is a quiet week, and one thing inevitably occurs. In order that’s thrilling to be there. However there’s, like, a – one query that I have been preserving behind my thoughts protecting this Congress is, you realize, everybody all the time hates Congress, and everybody all the time thinks that is the worst Congress ever. However issues actually do really feel completely different now.
And I’m not a long-time congress reporter, however I have been actually attempting to determine, is that this simply the newest model of Congress is damaged; authorities is dysfunctional; everybody all the time hates authorities? Or is one thing completely different occurring right here with Trump working and McCarthy being managed by the exhausting proper? And I do suppose that it is type of a historic second in a altering political panorama. So I believe it is fascinating, and I prefer it.
GROSS: You want protecting it?
KARNI: Yeah. I do not just like the dysfunction, however I like protecting it.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: I simply wished to make clear that. You are not rooting for a authorities shutdown.
KARNI: Yeah.
GROSS: However it’s fascinating to cowl it.
KARNI: No.
GROSS: OK.
KARNI: Yeah.
GROSS: Annie Karni, thanks a lot for speaking with us.
KARNI: Thanks a lot for having me.
GROSS: Annie Karni is a congressional correspondent for The New York Occasions. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we’ll speak about how an accident that causes a extreme damage and incapacity modifications a life straight away. The persistent ache can final for the remainder of your life. So how do you keep it up? That is the central query within the new novel, “Such Kindness.” My visitor would be the writer Andre Dubus III. He additionally wrote “Home Of Sand And Fog,” which was tailored into a movie. I hope you may be part of us.
(SOUNDBITE OF TERENCE BLANCHARD’S “AIN’T YO STUFF SAFE HERE”)
GROSS: To maintain up with what’s on the present and get highlights of our interviews, comply with us on Instagram – @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR’s government producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and evaluations are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the present. FRESH AIR’s co-host is Tonya Mosley. I am Terry Gross.
(SOUNDBITE OF TERENCE BLANCHARD’S “AIN’T YO STUFF SAFE HERE”)
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